I had never thought of comparing the Oedipus Complex and Antigone together so when I read this I was surprised at how well Antigone was picked apart telling about male dominance and victimization of women. In greek mythology women are seen as the hero and victim. I do not understand why it is not one or the other though. Hero or victim? It was a great review for me to read about Freud all over again as I have read about him before in some of my psychology classes. One thing that really stuck out to me of what Freud said was as humans we wish to fill our childhood desires by impulses. Our first impulse as a boy may be to have hate and violence displaced on the father and have love and affection displaced on the mother and just the opposite for girls. When reading the Antigone play there were some great lines that showed the dominance and victimization of women. Creon stated, "While I live, no woman shall rule me" and "Lo, one of these maidens hath newly shown herself foolish, as the other hath been since her life began," talking about Antigone and Ismene. In reviewing this reading and play I realize Antigone had an incestual relationship with her father. Gross! On page 58, where I read the part about father/daughter incest and brother/sister incest I automatically thought about the recent news of McKenzie Phillips story, breaking the news of her incetual relationship with her father. The media had a hay-day with this one. It is shocking how many other women came out and said they also had incest with their father or brother. I'm wondering at what point men decide to actually persue their daughter or sister for a sexual relationship? What detrimental effects this has on women!
I can't access the article, since for some reason it is linked to instead of directly posted, and I am off campus. I was, however, in a production of Antigone when Morningside last put it on, so at least I have something to go by.
Anyway, if I remember what I learned about Greek theatre at the time, she had to be a victim to be a hero because Greek theatre is largely about massive shifts in power and how people respond to trials from Gods. In Greek tragedy, the central figure starts on top of the world, but his one fatal flaw causes him to end up in a miserable position. Here, that is Creon. It is possibly worth taking note of the fact that while the strict dramatic structure of the time does make this a play about Creon, it is clearly actually about Antigone. Whether this has anything to do with ancient Greek patriarchy, to make audiences expect to see a play about a man, I have no idea. Tangent aside, Greek heroes, to be heroes, need to overcome their central flaw, and rise back out of a miserable state. There is no heroism in overcoming an obstacle, unless you first suffer from it. Antigone herself has to overcome Creon's flaw, and try to rise out of the miserable state that he takes everyone into. So it's not directly in form, which is likely why it is good theatre. She fails, but she did her best, and stayed true to the gods, and that makes her a hero.
But… uh… "Antigone had an incestual relationship with her father"… that never happened.
As to incest in real life, anything between parent and child is pretty horrible, because there is a clear power dynamic being taken advantage of. If it's a brother pursuing a sister… or a sister pursuing a brother… there is still a high ick-factor, but I don't know if it would strictly be wrong if they are consenting adults. On the other hand, incest between identical twins, that I can get on board with.
ok, so I also had the problem of not being able to access the article but I could read the part of Antigone so I'll go with that. We had read the play in highschool and our highschool even put the play on one year so I'm not totaly lost on the subject. But I dont see Antigones relationship with her father as incestual. Maybe I've totaly missed that but also if it were true what would be the reason for having this in the play? To give us more compasion for Antigone? Or more contempt for Creon?
I guess the biggest idea I took from this article was that because Antigone acted as a hero and against the norms of women in that time, that she could not be a wife and mother at the same time. I think this reflects modern prejudices about women that tend to hint that women can not be confident like men because that would make them bitch. I think it is too bad that women in Greek mythology are not seen as heroes without being victims at the same time. Why is this not the same for men as well? It makes it seem as though there is no way out for women, that not matter what they are always going to have the disadvantage simply because of our sex.
I was also interested by the idea that Antigone could not be a mother and wife at the same time as being a hero. In today's society, some people also have an idea that women cannot be confident without going against the social norms. If women were to be heroes in Greek plays, they also had to be victims at a time. I think this is interesting because to be a "hero" in society today, women don't have to be victims as well, sometimes they are but not all of the time. Is the Greek story more closely related to today's society than many of us see. I saw Antigone when it was performed her a few years ago and I think that helped me understand more about what the article was saying. It also interested me that the subject of the son marrying his mother came up a couple of times in the article. It seems as if until it was found out by the rest of the community, it wasn't a big problem and once they found out it was a problem. This is obviously related to Freud's theory of how boys don't get along with their dads and have a close bond with their mother because they want to be with her more than as her son. I hadn't honestly looked at Antigone in that way before and it was an interesting insight.
In this article Dorothy Willner analyzes Greek mythology from a “feminist perspective.” Seeing things from the viewpoint of a women rather than a man is often eye-opening, and I wish more feminists would challenge patriarchal interpretations. The author focuses her analysis on the relationship between Oedipus and his daughter Antigone, characters in Sophocles’ famous tragedy. Revising Leach’s theory to better fit her purposes, Willner theorizes that “to maintain domination men seek to bind their daughters (sisters) and nullify (displace) their sons.” Willner’s second proposition is that "the Oedipus myth is to the Oedipus complex as the myth of Antigone is to metaphorical father-daughter (brother-sister) incest and the victimization of women.” The first theory is one we’ve discussed many times in this class, but the second proposition is less clear in my mind (probably due to my lack of knowledge of the myths of Oedipus and Antigone). I have never read Antigone, and I think I would benefit from hearing a brief plot summary of the play. However, I gathered that Antigone’s brothers kill each other in a battle to claim the right to rule the city of Thebes and Creon issues an edict that forbids anyone to grant burial rights to one brother. As Willner noted, “Antigone is determined to defy Creon. Declining to join her, Ismene presents the submissive attitude proper to a Greek woman.” Antigone is portrayed as a strong character, refusing to conform to the social norm and her gender role, in contrast to her sister Ismene, who follows the patriarchal structure of her society. Willner asserts “the woman who is hero is not allowed also to be wife and mother.” Why is it that a strong woman cannot also fill the role of an ordinary woman? Is this the case in our society? Willner posits—and I agree—that Antigone is viewed as a hero rather than a victim in the sense that her suffering is a result of her own free will rather than her subjugation by another. However, Willner later makes the following claim: “Antigone, despite being a hero and because of it, also is a victim as regards her life as woman. For she dedicated to her father and brother the life that otherwise would have been available for marriage and motherhood.” How can we reconcile these conflicting statements? Finally, I noticed that Nancy’s Chodorow’s “feminist analysis of gender roles and their transmission” appeared yet again (in the section entitled “Myth and Social Structure”). It is always exciting to recognize a noted feminist theorist from one of our previous readings!
So honestly I hated Antigone when I had to see it freshmen year. Maybe it was because I was pregnant but I do not know. I understand however how she was different. She did not do what anyone told her to do, and she was a free thinker. Women who were like her usually were killed in her time. Those who were not killed where usually women in power. I have to say the only thing I ever enjoyed about Antigone is that she was brave and stood up to those who she probably should not of. I can only wish I was that brave, and I am sure that I am not the only one.
I remember seeing this play when Morningside put it on and I had to read it for a class also. I always have issues with this play ever time I read it. First, the whole ick factor with Oedipus marrying his mother always troubled me because honestly if the father had not wanted so badly to kill his son and thus, Oedipus was hidden, Oedipus would never had killed his father and married his mother cause he would have known that that was who they were! Stupid oracles not telling the whole truth. Anyways with Antigone, I always felt how brave she was and I was glad that she stood up for herself but what I had a problem with was the fact that because she became this "hero," she couldn't have kids. Like Sophocles had to make her more of a man to be able to be the hero than a woman. If she had been able to experience marriage and child-bearing, would she be less of a hero?
I had a hard time understanding the whole Oedipus complex in the article. Freud always bugs me with the whole children wanting to actually marry that parent that is opposite sex. I serious believe he had his own issues. Honestly, if Oedipus had actually wanted to marry his mother, knowing full well that it was his mother, he wouldn't have blinded himself and exiled. He knew it was wrong and he didn't want it as soon as he learned the truth. To me, Freud feels like Oedipus should have been okay with it because it was his secret desire. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I got out of it.
This article was pretty sweet, I found both Antigone and the story of Oedipus and a lot about the theories that Freud had to be very interesting. The way that the author describes her theory it makes it sound much more like the opposite of what the Oedipus theory implies. Although Oedipus killed his father and had relations with his mother on accident, the concept Freud explains is still that boys try to get rid of their fathers because they are jealous that he is getting attention from their mother. In this article the father is the one that is trying to remove the son from the relationship they would have with their sisters. They want to have control over their daughters and basically push their sons almost entirely out of the picture. With the story of Antigone, she decides to defy Creon and give her brother a burial without fear of the consequences shes no doubt bound to face once word circulates about what she has done. She is portrayed as the hero because she is standing up for what she believes in and wont back down from anything, not even the highest power in the land. But she could easily have been deemed as the victim in this story as well because she was only doing what she thought was right, not necessarily because she was trying to show up some man. Its interesting to look at the connections made between father and daughter with Oedipus and Antigone. It makes me wonder why these connections between them are so subtle?
To be honest i did not like the play at all when i had to watch it also my freshmen year. But, by getting into this class and learning about women roles in that time it actully shocked me from reading something about the play again. This was not just a play it was a revolution to show that women and actually make choices for them selves with out fear and without any type of punishment for their actions. It is weird to think that this play is a fiction, non existing in the past history when this play took place. Because, it makes you relize that their is not only a need for women right to be able to speak their minds, but we use that thought for our entertainment, in the play. As if, we were thinking that the idea of a women was so entertaining, people would have to put it into a play to get a kick out of it. any ways that's my rant
I really like the play “Antigone” because it illustrates the suppression of women and dominance of patriarchy. Antigone died as a result of her actions, which is simply buried her brother so he could gain entrance into Hades. This act of burial seems so routine to today’s society that to even contemplate the idea of an individual dying because they buried a loved one seems absurd. Antigone’s action, though, demonstrates that women are capable of thinking on their own despite the negative consequences men dictate upon women. Antigone is a hero of Greek mythology because she died as a result of her commitment to family and because of her disobedience to the king, Creon. I found it interesting in the article of how Freud’s Oedipus complex theory is related to the story of Antigone. By applying Freud’s theory to this article, essentially, the relationship between Antigone and her father, Oedipus, is questioned. Did Oedipus have sexual relations with Antigone? In Greek mythology, sexual relations among characters often go outside the realm of normalcy. For example, Oedipus married is own mother and had sex with her. In today’s society, this is extremely disgusting. Despite how disgusting this appears, if Freud’s theory as any merit whatsoever, then Oedipus’s actions were justified because he eliminated his father so that he could be with his mother. Following the timeline of history, though, Freud may have derived his Oedipus complex theory from Greek mythology which is why sexual relations in Greek mythology are justified by Freud’s theory. I have read “Antigone” before this class, but I have never thought about Freud’s Oedipus complex theory in relation to this play at all. It is interesting to associate Freud’s theory and “Antigone” because there are several questionable sexual relations that take place in “Antigone” and plays that precede and follow after it as well.
I have to say, I really have trouble buying Antigone as a symbol of women going against authority. Because she didn't. She merely acquiesced to what she saw as a HIGHER authority, which is the very patriarchal Greek pantheon. Creon, even as the king, lost his right to rule over her because he disobeyed the gods. He was never the top of the food chain, and Antigone doesn't defy authority as much as she skips over faulty middle management.
On the other hand, it seems that burying her brother is what she would honestly desire to do even if the gods did not demand it. But without knowing if she would have defying the gods is they wanted him not buried… it is hard to make a case for her independence from this.
I also take issue with applying the Oedipus complex to Oedipus himself, seeing as he didn't knew it was his father when he killed the man, or knew it was his mother when he killed the women. Nor had he been raised by either, so he wouldn't view them as parents. He couldn't have seen his father as an obstacle to reaching his mother, if he didn't first see them as mother and father.
Come to thing of it, the original myth of Oedipus was just to teach that fate can't be avoided, by using a very extreme example. That is, pushing Oedipus into the LEAST desirably position just to show how much he'd want to avoid fate. So, at least on the surface, this suggests that your father is the LAST person you would want to kill, and your mother the LAST person you would want to sleep with.
I suppose the case could be made that the situation is the most horrible because it taps into those subconscious desires that we reject… but i really do not buy it.
I'm not going to lie, I did not know the origins of the Oedipus complex, I knew that it meant that boys fell in love with their mothers and wanted their fathers dead. However, they take it from the play, and that because the play is still popular now that it must mean something. But o no, its not the themes of the play that we can understand, no connection with the idea of fate, no we must connect with the literal occurences in the play. Its the same as those people that take the bible as a literal thing, that yes, jonas got eaten by a whale, and earth was created in 7 literal days. It happened in the play, the writer of said play must have known all people's childhood dreams and knew that we all secretly were in love with our parents. Really? thats what you get from the play Mr. Freud?
I love the fact that you were able to link Antigone to several different gender and patriarchal topics and issues we have discussed throughout the class. Throughout Antigone we can that the women were obviously oppressed and that men were the dominant. Throughout the whole play it creates conflict between women's roles and men's rule. I cease to wonder though, if a son in fact married his mother in today's society, what would that say about his childhood and youth? We have talked on several instances about the upbringing of children and the influences they gain from each parent. What does this say about Oedipus?
Reading through the posts I agree with Mac, in Greek mythology and ancient Greek plays such as this of Antigone, to be a hero you must be a victim first. This is exactly how Antigone's role played out in the play. She was a victim because she killed herself (because she was SUPPOSED) to be executed in the morning, but she died as a hero because she buried her brother and went against her father and the king. In the play Antigone has a sister Ismene where patriarchy is very clear, Ismene even says, "It's better not to question it". I wish like some others, that I was around 3 years ago to watch the play put on here on campus.
Besides the play I liked the article chosen because it talks about the Oedipus complex in a way that I have never seen, and from my understanding this is how the Oedipus complex was derived by Freud, through this play! Unreal! I learned new facts about Oedipus that I didn't know before as well through reading various articles while getting to this one and with reading this one of course. I think it would be great to discuss the Oedipus complex related to Oedipus and Antigone, do you think they had sexual relations?
Considering how disgusted Oedipus was when he learned his wife's identity, and how disgusted Antigone is about the fact of her birth (which is reflected in her name, "against birth")… I really really doubt that there was any intentional incest at any point.
Well… Haimon was her cousin (and nephew? uncle? something), but that wouldn't have been viewed as incestuous. And they didn't have sex yet anyway. I think Antigone and Ismene can both be assumed as virgins.